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Post Cycle Therapy PCT and Post Cycle Therapy are used in bodybuilders after a bodybuilding steroid or prohromone cycle. Here you will find alternatives on different types of Post Cycle Therapy




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  #1  
Old 12-30-2009, 10:37 AM
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HCG/HMG and LH/FSH explained

HCG/HMG and LH/FSH explained
by Jay of WorldclassBodybuilding Fitness forums

First off there seems to be some confusion in regards to the difference between the aforementioned compounds and their effects on the two mentioned parameters.

Let's first go over the two Hormones:

LH

Luteinizing hormone is responsible for the trigger of testosterone release in the body. Basically, LH which is secreted in the Testes triggers the body to produce Testosterone. Once this is done the hypothalmus picks up on it in a negative feed back process (inhibition of GnRH). Thus, LH "checks" itself.

What does this mean?

Well, LH is a fine balance. Not enough, and your body doesn't produce Test. Too much, same effect. Now introduce synthetic Testosterone into the loop and what do we have? A break in the cycle. Boom...body stops producing LH.

Now wait a minute. If we're on cycle why would we want to tell the body produce LH when it doesn't need to? People think your testicles shrink due to lowered Test production. No no no. This is DIRECTLY linked to LH and FSH depletion. Test is NOT made in the testes. LH is made in the Testes which SIGNALS the body to make Test. Well if there's excess Test introduced why do we need LH? Are you guys seeing the link yet?

Excess test = no need for LH = shutdown of LH = Testicle shrinkage

So what are we aiming for? Well we're aiming for just enough LH production to keep the loop working, BUT not too much where the body downgrades receptors because it's gone haywire.

Now here's something REALLY interesting for you Tren/Deca users. Progesterone/Prolactin DIRECTLY inhibit the production of LH which = shutdown of Test production. This is why I ALWAYS preach the use of Cabergoline or Pramipexole during the cycle and even sometimes into PCT. In fact, LH is the primary fertility driver in women. Synthetic progesterone and estrogen is the contraceptive used to deplete LH. Interesting right? So Progesterone/Prolactin and Estrogen both have a negative effect on LH as well.

FSH

Follicle Stimulating Hormone is the lesser known Testicular hormone in Men. This is hormone responsible to Testicular Sperm Production. More often than not, this is the hormone responsible for infertility in men. There's three things needed for Spermatogenesis:

LH (to secrete Testosterone)
So basically Testosterone as well
FSH

LH secretes Testosterone -> Testosterone is needed to bind to the protein produced by -> FSH

It's been directly correlated that HIGH levels of Testosterone deplete FSH.

So now knowing that LH is linked to Testosterone production and FSH is linked to sperm production let's move forward to the hormones

HCG

- Effects LH (not FSH)
- Direct link to Testosterone secretion

First off, HCG should NEVER be used off-cycle by Men. Why? Well it triggers the release of LH which will temporarily signal the release of Test. Beautiful thing right? Wrong. This also triggers the release of Estrogen. Both will cancel each other out, the body will see it has a higher than normal concentration of LH and further shut down LH production.

The best use? Small doses while on. Simply put: Don't let the horse get out of the bar. 250-500iu e5d while on is the best course of action. With increased androgens in the body, it will make the body "think" the loop has never been broken.

High test -> high LH -> body thinks everything is Kosher

A "shotgun" (1000iu e3d) the last 3 weeks of the cycle will help prep the testes going into PCT where the SERM's bind to estrogen enough to get the body back into the normal groove

HMG

- Effects FSH (not LH)
- Direct link to sperm cell maturation

Ok...now with this compound. There's two uses:

1) Keeping FSH production in check while on cycle. For this, small doses similar to HCG while on cycle are effective for never letting HMG drop below acceptable levels (25iu e5d)

2) Spot fertility treatment. Yes, this can be used in the same way HCG (LH secretion) stimulates ovulation in females. (75iu one injection during time you are trying to conceive)


Best Method

-HCG 250-500iu e5d while on, 1000iu e3d last 3 weeks
-HMG 25iu e5d while on continued through last 3 weeks (not as critical to shotgun going into PCT

References:

Hormones of the Reproductive System

Luteinizing and Follicle Stimulating Hormones

Follicle-Stimulating Hormone Abnormalities: eMedicine Endocrinology
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  #2  
Old 01-20-2010, 05:13 AM
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Good read Jay, info backed with research. Appreciate you taking the time and posting this.

I've been curious about HMG but have lacked the time to research it to a level where, if I were to ever go back on, I'd consider adding it to an already effective routine.
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Old 01-20-2010, 09:52 AM
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Jay, I've found that HMG half life are 36 hours. I think is more benefical to inject HMG EOD to keep blood levels stable.

I know that FSH is pulsatile by nature, so I'm not so sure about maintaining stable blood levels of FSH could be benefical.

What do you think ?

Reference used :
IVF worldwide unit directory Human menopausal gonadotropins (hMG) | Education
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TAVARES88 View Post
Jay, I've found that HMG half life are 36 hours. I think is more benefical to inject HMG EOD to keep blood levels stable.

I know that FSH is pulsatile by nature, so I'm not so sure about maintaining stable blood levels of FSH could be benefical.

What do you think ?

Reference used :
IVF worldwide unit directory Human menopausal gonadotropins (hMG) | Education
Actually my only doubt was to the half life of HMG. I for some reason can't get that link to open but i'll look into it.
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:29 AM
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Here's the cut and paste.

Human menopausal gonadotropins (hMG)

Human menopausal gonadotropins (hMG),

Human menopausal Gonadotopin (hMG), a mixture of FSH and LH (in various dosages) derived from the urine of postmenopausal women
Brand names: Pergonal, Repronex, Menogon, Merional, Menopur, Metrodin, Bravelle, Fertinex,
It is a freeze-dried powder available in packs of 1, 5 or 10 ampoules. Each ampoule contains 75 IU of human follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and various doses of human luteinising hormone (LH) depends on the specific drug.
The injection is taken usually as an intramuscular injections, (but can also be given subcutaneously, depends on the specific drug) once a day unless instructed otherwise.
Dosages can vary from woman to woman and from cycle to cycle, however, a typical dosage is between 75 and 450 IU/day. Since the half life of the drug is around 32 hours, there is no need to inject every day, exactly on the same time.


Human menopausal Gonadotopin (hMG),for injection should not be used by women who:
• Already have high levels of FSH (indicating another reason for infertility)
• Have uncontrolled thyroid and adrenal gland dysfunction
• Have any lesion inside the head such as a pituitary tumour
• Have undiagnosed abnormal vaginal bleeding
• Have ovarian cysts or enlargement
• Are pregnant

How to Store the Medicine
Drugs should be stored below 25°C in a dark place such as a cupboard. Once the medicine is reconstituted (made up with solvent) it should be used immediately.
It is important not to use the medicine after the date shown on the ampoule or carton label.

Side effects: In women, this medication may cause fever, breathing trouble, bloating, stomach pain, enlarged ovaries or a skin rash.

Instructions how to prepare the injection


Gonadotropins in ampules (Pergonal, and Fertinex)
1. To open ampule, hold the ampule with the dot facing away from you and wrap gauze around the neck of the ampule.
2. Grasp the top of the ampule between your thumb and index finger. Carefully snap the top off by pulling it back towards yourself.
3. Using a 22G, 1˝" needle, withdraw 1cc of sterile water or diluent.
4. Squirt the water into the first amp of medication, aiming toward the side of the amp. Allow the powder to dissolve, swirling gently if needed.
5. Withdraw the entire mixture.
6. Squirt the water into the next amp, again aiming towards the side of the amp. Continue repeating steps 4 and 5 until all of the necessary ampules of medication have been mixed.
7. When you are finished mixing, you should have 1cc of mixture.
8. Remove any air bubbles.
9. Recap the needle and exchange for a 27G, ˝" needle for subcutaneous injection or for 22G, 1˝" needle for intramuscular injection.

Gonadotropins in vials (Repronex, and Bravelle)
1. Flip the plastic cap off the vials and wipe the top of each vial with rubbing alcohol.
2. Using a 22G, 1˝" needle, pull back on the plunger to the 1cc mark. Insert the needle into the vial of water or diluent and inject the air.
3. Invert the bottle and withdraw 1cc of water or push the needle all the way into the vial and withdraw 1cc of water. Either method is acceptable, but please be sure that the needle tip is in the water.
4. Remove any air bubbles by tapping on the barrel of the syringe and pushing the air out once it reaches the top.
5. Inject the water into the first vial of medication, aiming toward the side of vial. Allow the powder to dissolve, swirling gently if needed.
6. Withdraw the entire mixture.
7. Squirt the water into the next vial, again aiming toward the side. Continue repeating steps 5 and 6 until all of the necessary vials of medication have been mixed.
8. Remove any air bubbles. You should have 1cc of mixture.
9. Recap the needle and exchange for a 27G, ˝" needle for injection.

Instructions how to inject the drug

Intramuscular Injection Technique (IM)
1. Choose an injection site in the upper outer quadrant of the rear end, just behind the hip bone.
2. Wipe the injection site with an alcohol swab and allow to dry completely.
3. Using your non-dominant hand, pull the skin taut.
4. Holding the syringe in your dominant hand like you would hold a pen, inject at a 90-degree angle with one swift motion.
5. Withdraw slightly on the plunger to check for blood. (If blood appears, remove the syringe and apply pressure to the injection site. Choose a new site and begin again.)
6. Inject the fluid slowly.
7. Remove the syringe and apply pressure to the injection site.

Subcutaneous Injection Technique (SC)
1. Choose an injection site on the thigh, abdomen, or outer part of the arm. (Note: We recommend the abdomen.)
2. Wipe the injection site with an alcohol swab and allow to dry completely.
3. Using your non-dominant hand, squeeze an area of fatty tissue.
4. Holding the syringe in your dominant hand like you would hold a pen, inject the needle quickly at a 90-degree angle.
5. Withdraw the plunger slightly to check for blood. (If blood appears, remove the syringe and apply pressure to the injection site. Choose a new site and begin again.)
6. Inject the fluid slowly.
7. Remove the needle and apply pressure to the injection site.
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  #6  
Old 01-20-2010, 03:15 PM
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HMG, Human Menopausal Gonadotropin
Here are three definition of what HMG is, and what it does. Has anyone here tried it???

Menotropin is an active substance for the treatment of fertility disturbances. It is extracted from human urine from menopausal women [1] and contains the two gonadotropin hormones LH and FSH.

Menotropin medications include Menopur, Menogon, Repronex, Pergonal and HMG Massone.[2]

Human urinary-derived menotropin preparations are exposed to the theoretical risk of infection from menopausal donors of urine. Nevertheless, the failure to demonstrate irrefutably infectivity following intracerebral inoculation with urine from TSE-infected hosts suggests that the risk associated with products derived from urine is merely theoretical[3].

The Practice Committee of the American Society for Reproductive Medicine reported[4]: “Compared with earlier crude animal extracts, modern highly purified urinary and recombinant gonadotropin products have clearly superior quality, specific activity, and performance. There are no confirmed differences in safety, purity, or clinical efficacy among the various available urinary or recombinant gonadotropin products.”

HMG is used for stimulating hormones by triggering FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - and lh - leutenizing hormone - production in the body. This drug was originally designed for use in women where it stimulates the ovaries to produce multiple follicles, thus making them more fertile. The dosage varies from woman to woman, and HMG has been shown to induce ovulation in about 75-85% of patients that it is administered to.

In men, HMG can be used to stimulate natural testosterone production and to keep or restore the natural function of the testes. Those using HMG after testicular dystrophy often report an increase in sex drive and sense of well being as well as an increased rebound in fertility.

HMG is a drug similar to hcg in use and some of its function, but also has the added benefit of FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - stimulation, which triggers extra receptors to produce testosterone. While hcg is known mainly for testicular stimulation, HMG will also increase the amount of sperm the body is producing, which hcg isn’t as effective at. Although it hasn't been around as long and isn't as recognized as hcg, HMG is steadily picking up more interest in the medical community for the roles it can play in testosterone recovery. Those who don't see the results and recovery they want from a typical PCT - post cycle therapy - protocol may find HMG beneficial since it is able to stimulate the body's receptors at a wider range of points than hcg is able to.

HMG can be most effective when ran alongside other lh - leutenizing hormone - stimulating drugs such as hcg, Clomiphene, and Tamoxifen during a post cycle treatment plan. A typical dose of 75-150iu a day for 2 weeks is sufficient for restoring normal testicular function and sperm count in males. Although some may find that a longer protocol is needed due to extended periods of staying shut down or the use of hormones which are harsher on the body's natural testosterone function such as such as Trenbolone etc. One may also wish to run an anti-estrogen such as Aromasin during administration of this drug due to the possibility of elevated estrogen levels.

HMG Massone is used for stimulating hormone FSH and LH. This simply stimulates your natural test production and keeps hcg working optimally. Your sex drive and sense of well being come back more rapidly then with other treatments as well as your potential for staying or becoming fertile.

HMG Massone is a drug similar to HCG in use and some of its function, but also has the added benefit of FSH stimulation, while HCG is known mainly for LH stimulation. Although it hasn't been around as long and isn't as recognized as HCG, HMG is steadily picking up more interest in the bodybuilding community for the roles it can play in testosterone recovery. HMG was originally designed as a fertility drug, as FSH stimulation can greatly induce higher sperm count production by the body. Bodybuilders who don't see the results and recovery they want from a typical PCT protocol may find HMG Massone beneficial since it is able to stimulate the body's receptors at a wider range of points than HCG is able to.

HMG Massone can be most effective when ran alongside HCG and other LH stimulating drugs such as clomid or nolvadex during pct. A typical dose of 75-150iu a day for 2 weeks is sufficient for restoring normal testicular function and sperm count in males. Although some may find that a longer protocol is needed due to extended periods of staying shut down or the use of hormones which are harsher on the body's natural testosterone function such as such as Trenbolone etc.
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Old 01-20-2010, 03:53 PM
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HMG and HCG ramblings

hcg and HMG fascinate me, really. They keep our boys active, makes us feel better, makes us fertile...basically restore manhood. I believe we need to find an ideal dosage via research and experimentation on ourselves to really get the most out of it.

Here's something to try if you're on test...and I believe Wulfgar has mentioned he does this:

Are you injecting hcg/HMG while on test? At what point of the ester half life are you doing that? Toward the end of a testosterone cypionate half life (5-8 days) to get androgen levels back up before injecting the testosterone cypionate again? I believe Wulfgar will inject testosterone cypionate then wait a week, inject hcg, wait another 3 days, then inject the testosterone cypionate again. I will let him chime in when he sees this

Also - why doesn't HMG raise E2 values like hcg does?

Is it because hcg stimulates lh - leutenizing hormone - production which raises test and therefore it converts to estrogen via the aromatase enzyme?

As opposed to HMG actually being lh - leutenizing hormone - and FSH - follicle stimulating hormone - ?

Something worth reading by John Crisler, DO:

It is important that no more than 500IU of hcg be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desentization to lh - leutenizing hormone - , and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.

In my previous report I recommended 250IU of hcg twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test testosterone cypionate injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about hcg, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test testosterone cypionate TRT patients now take their hcg at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their hcg subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required).

I made this change after realizing that the previous hcg protocol was boosting serum testosterone levels too much, as the test testosterone cypionate serum concentrations rise, approaching its peak at roughly the 72 hour mark. The original goal of supporting serum androgen levels with hcg had overshot its mark.

While hcg, as sole TRT, is still considered treatment of choice for hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism by many , my experience is that it just does not bring the same subjective benefits as pure testosterone delivery systems do—even when similar serum androgen levels are produced from comparable baseline values. However, supplementing the more “traditional” TRT of transdermal, or injected, testosterone with hcg stabilizes serum levels, prevents testicular atrophy, helps rebalance expression of other hormones, and brings reports of greatly increased sense of well-being and libido. My patients absolutely love it. As time goes on, we are coming to appreciate hcg as a much more powerful--and wonderful--hormone than previously given credit.


Source: Copyright John Crisler, DO 2004. This article may, in its entirety or in part, be reprinted and republished without permission, provided that credit is given to its author, with copyright notice and All Things Male - Center for Men's Health clearly displayed as source. Written permission from Dr. Crisler is required for all other uses.

While the above article is focused mainly on TRT, some of us still use a baseline of test in conjunction with other compounds for growth. Nelson made a lot of sense when he said test is very suppressive; what else can falsely replace your body's own natural supply than exogenous test?

Posted by Swole @ EF.
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  #8  
Old 01-20-2010, 03:59 PM
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HMG is a really new thing. The problem is that it's mostly used in women and there's not much known about the effects it have in men.

You have to remember a woman's ovulation cycle is way different than a mans. I don't really believe FSH is pulsatile in a man because we're shooting swimmers all day everyday if we want.

As for HMG I would just think less is more at this point.
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Old 01-20-2010, 06:52 PM
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This is good info. Thank you Jay.
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Old 01-24-2010, 01:46 PM
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Very good info i get this question alot from my clients on how to run and this spells it out very simply. I tend to get to technical with them and they get lost...lol
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